Welcome to the inaugural episode of the People in Housing Podcast, where we dive deep into the pressing issues within the housing sector. Today marks a significant milestone as we kick off our journey to facilitate open, honest discussions with industry leaders.

In this first episode, we tackle a critical challenge faced by housing associations: the rising concerns surrounding damp and mould. With our guest, Danny, the newly appointed Head of Damp and Mould at Places for People, we explore not just the technicalities but also the human stories behind these issues. Danny brings over 15 years of experience in housing, and his insights will shed light on the increasing demand for effective solutions in this area, especially following the tragic case of Awaab Ishak in 2020.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of our sector, share our experiences, and aim to provide valuable insights for everyone. This isn’t just another podcast; it’s a platform for real conversation and real change in housing, and we’re proud to champion that. So, whether you’re a seasoned professional or new to the field, we hope you find value in our discussions and the stories we share. Let’s get started.

Firstly, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Oh, and congratulations on the new role.

Thank you. Yes, so I’ve been in housing for 15 years now; God, I feel old… but I’ve held various roles all across the sector. I’m currently at Places for People and have recently taken on the role of looking after damp and mould. It’s been about eight months in total.

How did you get into the sector then?

Well, everybody has a story, don’t they? You know how much we all want to help people however that may be, but mine was not necessarily like that. I did… I'm being honest with you, as I always will be. I sort of fell into housing. But it clicked with me. You know, I grew up in a council house, so it’s always been easier for me to put myself in the customers shoes, I guess. Because you know, that little boy in social housing accommodation was me once. It just helps you connect better. Once I started the role, I thought, okay, this aligns with who I am as a person and my past.

Everyone comes from so many different backgrounds in life. Obviously, you can connect on a much deeper level when you've been there and understand what these people are going through.

It would be really good to understand how it's affected your organisation specifically and what the impact has been over the last few years. 

Yes, well, Awaab Ishak was 2 years old when he died in December 2020 in Rochdale, and that sort of changed everything because, for the first time, the coroner ruled the death was directly attributed to damp and mould. It probably took us a couple of years to really feel the full effects, but certainly, until November 2020, certainly in the housing associations I have been associated with, we probably saw about a 250% increase in cases since then.

You can feel the fear because it can affect children under 14; it can affect people with respiratory issues. If you're a parent, like I am, I get that. You know, even losing one child is too many; you don’t want to see another one ever. So, I understand there’s a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, and many issues caused by it.

Because of that, and due to cost pressures and various other environmental factors, we haven’t made the sort of core investment in our homes that we should have done.

Also, there’s a cost-of-living crisis, and the cost of heating homes has gone up massively. So, really, that’s created a sort of perfect storm in the background. And then, you know, you have to have difficult conversations with tenants and tell them to heat their homes during a cost-of-living crisis. You’re telling some of the most vulnerable people in society, “Put the heating on, but also make sure you open the window.”

It’s quite a bizarre message in a sense, so it’s about how we balance that, you know, ensuring that it’s not a choice between heating and eating. It never should be. You know, we should be the good guys; there’s a narrative in the background that we need to do so much better in that, and that’s why I’m in the role I’m in.

Yes, I guess it was panic stations. If I’m honest, it’s not necessarily my organisation, but just because that could happen to you. We needed to look at our processes. You think about that level of risk; it’s just unimaginable for an organisation to carry. Getting back to our core purpose, we are there to enable our customers to have a healthy environment, you know, a warm, safe, clean, affordable home and space in the community where they are proud to live.

How do we convey the message about what causes damp and mould and how to prevent it?

So, it’s about not only the competent people but also about the decision-makers. We need to make sure that decision makers are well informed. We also need to make customers aware of how to effectively look after their homes to help with the prevention of mould.

And that’s quite a hard communication piece because you need to balance saying, “Make sure you heat your home,” and “Make sure you open windows.” That messaging is quite challenging, and making it resonate with so many people for it to work is difficult.

It’s so difficult because drying the washing and cooking your dinner is part of your lifestyle; living in your home isn’t just something you can stop doing, but it can contribute to the issue. So, it’s about how to balance that. And that’s hard because we view the world from our own perspectives. I’ve got a house that my dad taught me how to manage; some people aren’t as fortunate.

One of the things that really annoys me is calling it an ‘education piece.’ It just rubs me up the wrong way. I think it should be an awareness piece; I think there’s a big difference.

But that’s how it’s always been done. We’ve always come out in suits and told people what to do, but now the dynamics have totally changed. So, there’s an awareness piece where we need to work with each other and help one another to ensure we’re all safe, sound, and happy.

In terms of the next or 2,3,4 years down the line, is there anything that you feel needs to be done more of?

It’s probably still damp and mould because I don't think it's finished yet. We’re just about to head into winter. There are new cases coming in all the time, and we need to look at how we’re dealing with them and where our successes are. It’s just so complex because it moves so much. We're dealing with people who have lives; we can't just say, “Thank you very much for your report,” and then just turn up on their doorsteps expecting them to be available.

We often don’t work with them enough; we often don’t ask them when they want the appointment; we just give them one. That’s one thing we often do as a sector, and we need to massively change that. I think we’re getting better at it.

So how can we prevent this from happening again in the sector?

We need a zero-tolerance approach, and that’s the big thing. But that doesn’t mean zero cases. I’d really like it to be at the point where I phone you as a customer and say, “You know what? I’m looking at your humidity reading. I’m looking at the temperature in your home, and I think there could be an issue. I’d really like to come out. What does it take for the customer to tell us what we should do with them, as we are the experts?”

We can do this. It’s going to take us a few years, but we can get there.

I don’t want to criticise the sector; that’s not me. But we need to do a lot better; we have just compartmentalised the issues rather than looking at the piece holistically. We’ve just said that’s an issue; let’s deal with it. It’s the same thing with Grenfell; we had to be told not to put something flammable on the side of a building. If you boil it down to that, that’s horrendous. So, you know, we need to do much better; we should not need to be told. We should be the experts in that.

And do you have any recommendations for people listening, particularly from other housing associations and organisations looking to tackle their own damp and mould issues?

I think it’s just back to basics. It's about process. A lot of the time, we haven’t asked about the customers' vulnerabilities; we ask about the problem, we ask about the property, but we don’t ask about the person enough. It’s about creating that knowledge bank about the person. It’s not just about the property. Let's focus on the person, you know, because every case is different, and one size does not fit all anymore; that would be my big point.

A home is a living entity. I had a case a few years ago where we were trying to work out what the issue was, and the problem turned out to be dogs. The customer had two big dogs, probably like the size of me, breathing out moisture. They were living in a flat, and they were just creating moisture for a family of six or something, which was heavily contributing to their issue with damp and mould. So what I’d say is look closer at your tenants and treat them on a case-by-case basis, viewing their home as a living, breathing thing because it is, and often we overlook the simple things.

Do you think there's enough people in the sector to tackle these issues?

I’m going to say something that I don’t think I should say, but if you think of the best and brightest people, that’s who you want to attract to the sector. Do we do enough to attract them? I don’t know if we do. There are currently lots of people who tend to be in very senior positions now, who are struggling to keep up with the knowledge as it’s all changed and moved. I’m not necessarily saying that youth is the answer, but I am saying that for a cultural shift, you need to grow your own; you know, to bring in apprentices and graduates.

Recruit for attitude and train for skill. We don’t just want skilled people; we want people who care, who are in it to do the right thing. Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking; you can't train that to a degree. But if you sit down with really good people over time, you can really build something together.

Moving forward together: A commitment to change in housing

We hope you’ve gained valuable insights into the complex and urgent issue of damp and mould in the housing sector. Our conversation with Danny highlights not only the technical challenges but also the deeply personal stories that underscore the importance of addressing these problems. The tragic case of Awaab Ishak serves as a critical reminder of the stakes involved and the urgent need for housing associations to take a proactive stance. As Danny emphasised, understanding the unique circumstances of each tenant is vital in creating effective, tailored solutions. The human element must remain at the forefront of our approach as we strive to foster healthy, safe, and dignified living environments.

Looking ahead, collaboration, communication, and a commitment to continuous improvement will be essential in overcoming the challenges we face as a sector. By working together and championing awareness rather than mere education, we can create a more supportive and responsive housing landscape.

If you’d like to listen or watch the full episode, please follow the links below to our Spotify and YouTube channels.