In the second episode of the People in Housing podcast, we talk with Richard Clark, Head of Housing and Neighbourhoods at Bournville Village Trust, about the challenges and rewards of working in the housing sector, with a focus on the incredible people driving change. From tackling the housing crisis to supporting vulnerable communities, Richard shares insights on the power of great people in overcoming the industry's toughest issues.

We explore how housing professionals make a real impact on residents' lives, whether it's through innovative programs like the Well Winter initiative or repurposing buildings to provide safe, temporary accommodation.Join us as we discuss the future of housing, the need for recognition of housing professionals, and the essential role of qualified teams in shaping a more sustainable and supportive housing sector.

Richard, thank you so much for joining us today on the People in Housing Podcast. It's great to have you here. Do you want to give us an overview of your role at Bourneville and what you do, as well as your journey in housing so far, and how you've got to the position that you’re in today? 

Thanks for having me. I’ve been at Bourneville for just over two years as Head of Housing and Neighborhoods. I’m responsible for the Income Lettings Housing Management team and our Money Matters team, part of our financial inclusion team within the wider communities directorate.

My journey in housing started in 2005. I came into housing from the police service. As a police officer, I did a lot of work with Romford, particularly community work. So, I worked for Romford for a while as a housing manager in Solihull, focusing on antisocial behaviour and community safety.

I then moved on to Solihull Community Housing, in a similar role, before going to Waterloo, which is now Platform as an ASB Coordinator. When I was at Solihull I did what was then the foundation degree in housing. Then I moved into a Neighbourhood Services Manager role to broadened out my knowledge and skills around housing management. I then identified that the only thing that was really missing was allocations and lettings, which is a big KPI driver within housing. So I took the role as Home Moves Manager at PA Housing and split my time between the Midlands and London.

I saw a lot of different things. Obviously, London is a very, very different place compared to the Midlands. I got a really good understanding of how nomination agreements work, the pressures with local authorities, and generally working within housing. And then I thought I'd spent time in big organisations, like Platform, Romford, and PA, you know, they all have 30, 40, 50,000 properties. And I wanted to really look at focusing on a more values driven organisation somewhere where I could really make a difference and really have an influence on the way things were done. So when the job came out at BVT, it really hit every point that I wanted. It was extremely values-driven, with a strong legacy, and lots of history behind it, clearly very customer-focused, but with a desire to change and continue to change.

That's why we are where we are today. We've had a lot of change in the last two years at BVT and previously even before I started, a lot of work has been done, since the new Chief Executive, Pete Richmond, came in just around really focusing on our corporate plan and really making sure that it's a customer focused organisation. And that's really what attracted me, and it's been great.

Has your role always been the same there, or has it expanded since you joined? 

It's moved slightly. I've recently taken on our old person stock, so that's our sheltered schemes in Birmingham and our extra care scheme in Telford. But broadly, my main remit is around making sure that we're customer focused and that we're working to our values, whilst making sure that we're performing well for the business. And I think we've done that.

We are on a journey. It's a cliche to say, but we are. And I think everybody is. I think with housing as a sector, we're always moving forward, people say we tend to go back to what we've always been doing because it is a cycle. We edge forward with making incremental changes to processes and policies and before you know it, you're back to where you were with the approach that you take. But we're at the start now of really driving through change, going from a more traditional housing management model to what we call our enabled coordinator model. Which is essentially understanding our customers better, being more professionally curious, being inquisitive, getting behind the front door, and wanting to know about our customers. Because we can't tailor our services to our customers if we don't know who they are or what they want.

A big driver for us is understanding our residents more. You live and die by data, and data is really important, but there’s nothing better than actually speaking to people face to face. And that was lost a little bit in Covid, where we were all working remotely. But I think now the customers’ expectations are that we are out there. We are visible, we are engaging with them. And that's where we are, and what I want us to be.

We've done a lot of recruitment to get us to that point. And we've got some real disruptors in. People who were real customer advocates and understood the business. We very much recruited on attitudes and behaviours to find these people, not just qualifications. Seeing what people can actually bring to the business as a person. You've got to be part of the team, and you've got to be understanding of what we're trying to do.

And how would you test that then at the interview stage?

I think it's a judge of character. And I think it's we're trialling quite a few different methods in terms of recruitment around sharing the questions beforehand with the candidates. So, it's not a memory test. It takes some of the apprehension and nervousness out so people can be themselves a little bit more. That has been working and I think it's something that we'll continue with. It's very role-specific, and it depends on what you’re looking for. One of the things I say when I'm interviewing is, “I want you to be as relaxed as possible, and I try and make it conversational”. You have to make sure that you retain that fairness for every candidate but the broad drivers of it are that we want to bring out the best in you. We want to bring out your knowledge. We don't want you to just freeze up and say what you think we want to hear, because housing, as you know, is a professional sector. It needs to be more professionalised. The regulator has picked up on that and the government has picked up on that. But there are some fantastic people, and we need to draw out those good qualities.

I think sometimes we have been guilty of just looking within the sector. With the driver now for excellent customer service and being customer-led, there are other areas and other sectors in which we can draw on best practices and transferable skills. Also, when you look at qualifications and the driver for that, if somebody is prepared and is committed and wants to learn those qualifications, whether it be level three, level four, level five, at whatever level they're at, it’s a good starting point.

I know you've touched on the qualifications there. But being at Romford, Solihull Platform, formerly Waterloo, PA and Bourneville you’ve seen it all. What would you say right now is the biggest challenge that the sector is facing?

I think quite rightly, and I've touched on it already, it’s customer expectation. We should be there to provide an excellent service to our residents, and I think in the past there has been a bit of a parent/child relationship with our residents. And I'm not talking about BVT. I'm talking about as a sector. Where we're the landlord, this is the decision we've made, we're going to tell you what you can and can't do. Whereas now, it's very much customer-led. And we need to be customer-led, of course. And we need to understand that we need to listen. And I think BVT has definitely got that.

It's very different in an organisation like BVT, which is a real community anchor in the centre of Bourneville itself. And in Telford where we've got our stock, there are many elements of what we do and we're seen as very much a de facto local authority as such because we have responsibility for green spaces and the way the area looks, which would normally fall to the local authority but because of the scheme of management people look to us for that. But I think with other organisations, they may be developing and be a lot bigger, but they have far less of a community footprint. So, it's more difficult for them to have that kind of influence over the community. I can see where the challenge is when you've got 50,000 properties, but they're spread amongst 47 local authorities. That is a challenge, and it's still a challenge for us, and we've got the majority of our stock or all of our stock in two local authorities or three.

And so you’ve experienced first-hand the difference going from a big organisation to as smaller trust, like Bourneville where you can be more hands-on and see the difference you’re making. 

Yes, and it's great because I have the ability to influence and change things and so do my team. That's one thing that we've really instilled in them is empowering the team and giving them the confidence, knowing that they've got that responsibility. A phrase I stole from my director is “ask for forgiveness, not permission”. A lot of what we do within housing it's doing nothing that will cause an issue. It's very rare that you've done something that will cause an issue. It's ignoring something or turning a blind eye or not acting on information that you receive. That's what will then spiral out of control. So, I always say to my teams, there isn't a blame culture, you won't be criticised. If something goes wrong, then as long as that decision or that choice is made in good faith, and you can demonstrate why it was done at the time, then carry on doing what you're doing.

They're the people on the ground. I see my role and my managers’ roles as facilitating that for the teams on the ground. They're the ones that are having that face-to-face customer contact, and we need to be supporting them to make sure that they feel that if they make that decision, they'll be supported and that it’s within their remit to be able to make changes. Whereas, sometimes, in bigger organisations, it can be very top-down. Our team is very close-knit, and we work closely together. Hybrid working is a challenge. People aren't in the office every day, so they’re not sharing best practices over a desk like they used to. “ I know that resident, or I dealt with them, or I've had that problem here”, so that can be a little bit of a barrier sometimes.

Have you brought everyone back into the office a bit more to increase that?

No, because of where we're located because our head office is slap bang in the middle of our stock or the majority of our stock within Birmingham. The neighbourhood coordinators will come in even if they're out and about. And the way I look at it is I want them out and about on the patch, I want them engaging with residents. I don't want them in the office just from an arbitrary point of view, just to be able to talk to each other. They've got mobile phones; they have ways of contacting each other. So, it's having that mindset of knowing that you've got that team around you. We do have regular team meetings and catch-ups. And that's really, really important. But the fact is, we want the teams out and about. I want the teams engaging on site and if they've got notes to write up, I'd rather them write notes, as long as it's safe, in a cafe or one of our community buildings, so they can engage with residents rather than having to come back to the office and write the notes.

It's that visibility and I think that's, that's the best way of driving it. But speaking to other heads of service and other managers in the sector about hybrid working, some of it was forced on some organisations because of Covid. Some organisations had already embraced it years before that, and they were all set up for it. But it will always remain, a different way of working. Sometimes when we've got an open reception, for example, residents can come in and report problems. I think historically, they probably expected that there would be somebody there from the housing team to speak to them, which, again, is good customer service. But equally, we want them out and about on-site. We can't have people sat in waiting just in case. So, it's also making sure that other colleagues within the business are trained and feel confident in taking information.

Another priority is getting back to residents when we say we are going to go out. Keeping promises is something that is extremely important from a customer perspective, of course. And you've got the advantage. When you've worked at a couple of organisations, you'll learn something from each one to take to the next one each time. So, you sometimes find yourself drawing on what you've learned in the past, and then implement it where you are now. At the end of the day, we're dealing with people and we're dealing with properties. And you know, whether it's procedures, whether it's policies, whether it's ways of working, you do lean on where you've worked before, in good and bad ways.

There are things that inevitably you disagree with or that you find a little bit more challenging, but there are other things that you think aren't. And sometimes you come across something that's a little nugget of information and you think, I'm going to keep that for the rest of my career. Whether that’s a way that you're spoken to by a senior leader or whether it's just a procedural thing that's giving you really good results.

I think that’s something that, inevitably, you're going to lean on because housing is a very close-knit sector, and there's a lot of movement within the sector. There always will be. I think that's something that we do quite well. We don't gatekeep best practices; we're not seen as competitors for each other. We're all in the same business, and we should all be there to help our residents. That's why we have stuff like this podcast, all the events that happen, and all the collaborations.

It's actually one of our values, and it's really important to work in partnership, whether it's your statutory agencies like your local authorities, police and social services or whether it's the partners or other providers because we all have very similar challenges. They're all on a different scale depending on your size and where you are geographically based. But they are all very similar challenges. And I think it is really important that we share best practice. The Birmingham Social Housing Partnership is a case in point with that. That's a very well-attended group, it’s very well chaired, very well run, and it's a great sounding board. I've asked for policies to be reviewed through that group to get a critical eye across how you’re doing things and understand the challenges you face. To have that kind of forum in a city like this, I think, is great.

One of the challenges we touched on earlier was one of the big regulatory changes and the new housing qualification. So, how are you guys tackling that, and do you have a roadmap?

Well, my two service managers are going through level five now. Whilst it's not a requirement as yet, I think it's really important that it shows an investment in the team and gets us ready.

And we are looking at through our PPDs, which is kind of our annual performance meetings, we’re seeing which colleagues are keen to go through that. So, we’ll look at job roles and whether they are needed, as well as succession planning. And actually, I think in housing, sometimes something that is lacking is succession planning. There's not a lot of that reflective practice because it's very much on to the next thing, onto the next thing. So, I think that one thing that I've tried to do at BVT is look at our succession plan and look at who are the rising stars. And make sure that we're supporting everybody, and that those people that have identified that they want to progress or want to upskill in various different areas are supported, if we can afford it and if it's relevant to their job role. For me, that's how you get engaged teams that want to remain with you and grow with you.

It's also about just getting that getting that culture. So, I oversee 3 or 4 different teams, some in different locations, and it's really important that whilst they're teams within themselves, they all feel part of one bigger team as well and that they all feel part of BVT. It’s something that I'm really trying to drive through with the managers. And I think as a business, we're doing a really good job at that. We've got a very clear corporate plan. We've got very clear goals, very clear values. And that's translating well into what we're doing on the ground.

And where does the training budget come from then? Because these courses are not cheap. 

We have a learning and development budget, which sits under our HR team, and they have obviously identified that this is a driver moving forward. So, they've been great in providing the funding where we've needed it. Obviously, it does take up a big chunk of the budget, but I do think this is something that we need. It's something that provides the managers with the reassurance that we're invested in them and that we want as professional a team as possible. I think it's something as a sector. Whilst I'm not 100% sure that they know the nuances of it yet, they want to get everybody qualified.

Housing needs to be seen as a professional industry. Because it is. I’ve been in “professionals” meetings with police, social services, mental health services, child protection officers, those kinds of things. And I’ve been asked to leave the room so the professionals can discuss the matter. And you think to yourself, well, I probably know more than you about this individual’s life because I’m not seen as a statutory body. I’m their landlord. So, I’m allowed into their property. I’ve had conversations with them. Unfortunately, we’re not seen as professionals like social workers or police officers, and I think we are very much like them. And whilst we don’t need a qualification for that, I think it certainly helps. I think it will add a little bit of kudos to what the teams do because, as I say, there are some magnificent people out there working in housing. The actual impact you can have on individuals’ and families’ lives by doing very little really can make a huge difference for a family. 

It's hard because housing is front and centre; everything you see on the news at the moment it’s all about the housing crisis. There has been a housing crisis for the best part of 15-20 years, if not longer. It's so visible, and it's been visible even more so with the tragedies at Grenfell, and it’s been a real challenge for the sector. But it does put it front and centre. And I think the rewards of working in housing are huge. The flexibility, the ability to work and have that influence and the ability to change somebody's life or change a family's life. In housing, you can be with somebody from the beginning to the end of whatever all the way through. Support them all the way through, and I think that's extremely rewarding. It is challenging at times, and it is frustrating, like any role. And you are at the mercy of societal challenges and things that might go wrong; we've gone through Covid, we've gone through the cost-of-living crisis, and that's had a direct impact on our residents. And not only on our residents but on the team as well. It's challenging if you're an income officer and you've got your finances stretched at home, and you're coming in every day asking other people for money. And they're under pressure. So, from a resilience perspective, it can be really hard.

Certainly, at BVT, we're trying to counteract that with lots of really positive well-being stuff. I'm going on resilience training on Thursday, and that's something the whole business is going on. I think it was something based off the back of our employee surveys and things like that. So, we do ask the questions, and it's good to see them put it into action. Resilience was one because it has been a tough few years for people, and work and home life has really taken its toll on a lot of people. And I think it's important that we recognise that. And BVT has certainly recognised that in various ways. With the softer things, but also the training to provide coping mechanisms and strategies. So, it's really good.

As you mentioned, there's always something happening in the industry that causes complete chaos. And then the budget just gets blown apart. When it changes every single year, how does it affect you? How are you still meeting the basic needs of your tenants to make sure you can still deliver that quality?

I mean, there has been since Covid, there’s been the cost-of-living crisis, fuel poverty, and spikes in inflation, which has massively increased costs. And whilst rents have increased by 7%, which is a lot of money for our residents, that still doesn't cover our costs, which, as a sector that is increasing, you've got to find that gap. The way we looked at it, we're still investing millions of pounds in our stock. We're trying to improve the quality of our stock in terms of our kitchens, bathrooms, and window program, and that takes time and money. When we're looking to improve the quality of our properties in the conservation area, for example, the traditional Bourneville side, it's not like you can just stick a set of uPVC windows in that you've bought en-masse. They all need a bespoke design; there’s a conservation officer who needs to be satisfied with their design. They need to be in-keeping, they need to be timber, all those kinds of things. So that is a real investment, but ultimately, it will have a huge impact on people's lives in terms of in winter when instead of having that draught coming through, they've got warmer, safer homes that are more energy efficient, that should cost them less in terms of heating. And that money is then back in their pocket. So that's the way we're looking at it.

We've had specific programs like the Well Winter program, where we've tried to focus on fuel and food vouchers for families most in need. That's been running for over three years now.

I was going to ask about the Well Winter program. I know you are really proud of it, so where did that come from? 

We picked up on this through our money advice team: the number of families accessing food banks and being in fuel poverty. We did quite a bit of work with Severn Trent around water poverty and things like that and being able to access grants. So, that was a great bit of partnership work that we did. But the data and the people who were contacting us showed a spike in people who were really struggling.

We've done an excellent job in keeping our rent collection high. Our arrears level is really positive; for 12 months, we didn't evict any residents. I mean, real evictions are always the last resort. We want to help people sustain tenancies. I think for around 18 months we didn't evict anybody. And we worked with everybody whilst at the same time reducing our arrears. So that was a real positive.

The second layer of that is the work that we did in the Well Winter fund around supporting people in fuel poverty and supporting people with food at the time of the year when it is needed the most. Where it's Christmas, the weather's poor, finances are stretched. We set aside a significant amount of money to support residents. And that was really, really helpful. As the years have gone on, we’ve tailored that to make sure it goes to those who are most in need. And it's something that the team are really proud of and that I'm really proud of. It takes quite a lot of time to administer to make sure that it's fair and that the people who do need it are getting it. It is really worthwhile, and it's a good opportunity to work with other teams because we work very closely with the customer service centre around issuing that money out to the residents and making sure that it is getting to them.

The other project that I'm proud of at the moment is we're converting the beeches. Historically, it was a holiday camp for inner-city children that was set up by the Cadbury family for children who lived in poverty and weren't able to have a holiday. They would come out to Bourneville, and they'd have outdoor activities and things like that. Over the last couple of decades, it's taken various guises, including a conference centre and things like that. But it's got accommodation, and it's in the centre of Bourneville. So, now we're working with Spring Housing to provide short to medium accommodation for families that are facing homelessness. So, we’re repurposing that building to really help. I think over 20 families are either currently in temporary accommodation or facing homelessness. And that's something that could have just been rented out as a commercial building. But we've worked with Spring, who is one of our partners, and we're hoping that over time, it will help numerous families get back on a more sustainable footing.

I think it's really valuable. There are so many people out there who need help, whether it's refugees, people fleeing domestic abuse, or young care leavers. We've got our care leavers scheme at the holdings, which has seen some really positive stories around young people leaving care and then going into more sustainable long-term accommodation and the work that's been done with the team. As a business, we’ve spent more than 120 years supporting people and trying to help people where we can. And that’s one of the really important parts of BVT, and I don't see that changing.

It's inbuilt within our values; it’s who we are. And whilst we're not currently developing and growing, we are trying to make our stock as energy efficient and as fit for purpose for the future as possible. We are also doing everything we can to engage with our residents and listen to them about how we deliver our services and what we do.

Perfect. So where do you see the sector going if you had a crystal ball in 5, 10, 20 years’ time?

I think the sector will remain front and centre because the housing crisis isn't going away. It won't go away overnight. You can't build properties overnight. It will take sustained building over a period of time. I also think the impact of regulation is really important. I think it's something that obviously hasn't been in place for several years and it'll be really helpful to us as a sector to understand what's needed and to be driven by that. Whether we live or die by it, I don't know, but I think we certainly need to make sure that we are working to give the best service that we possibly can.

In terms of BVT, I hope to see us go from strength to strength. Hopefully, we will retain the people who have come in, and we will build on that. We build on our culture and our values. And I think we've got a really good corporate plan for the next ten years, which is about sustaining our properties. There is a plan in the future to do great things, and I'm really energised by that. I've been in the sector for 20 years now, and I’ve seen really good things; I've been at BVT for just over two years, and I love coming to work every day. It’s challenging, of course; like anybody in the sector, we've got significant challenges at the moment, but we're facing them, and we're doing everything that we can to try and meet those challenges. And we've got really good people. And I think that's one of the most important drivers. If you can get really good people who care and who buy into the values of the organisation, that’s all you need.

I'm really positive about the future; hopefully, we can continue to share with other organisations. I think that collaboration is really important; we're all under the same pressures, and it’s something I'm passionate about. One of the reasons I'm here today is to get the word out about what BVT is doing out there, of course, but also to recognise that we're not standalone in that. There are a lot of people who go out there every single day and work extremely hard with residents, and it isn't getting any easier for them. And I think we need to make sure that those people on the ground are getting that recognition that they're doing a great job. And that as a sector, we support them. It's all about getting the right people and encouraging more people to join the sector as well.

Great point. What would you say to someone to entice them and encourage them to get into the sector? 

I'd just say it's a really exciting sector to work in that you have the ability to go in various directions. Broadly, as organisations, we are there to support you whether you want to work in assets, maintenance, or housing management. those different roles are there, and there are a lot of transferable skills that you can bring into the sector. No day is ever the same, and it certainly couldn't be classed as boring. The rewards are there, and the framework is now there for qualifications and professionalism. If that is something that you want to follow and you get the right organisation, then you can gain as much experience and knowledge as you need.

The biggest thing for me is that you've got the ability to change people's lives, and I say that to the team. We're not going to solve everything. We're never going to be able to solve everybody's problems. But I want the interactions that they have with the team to have that little bit of positivity, so residents come away just that little bit better by having an interaction with us and with BVT, and that can be on varying levels.

You can find a property for somebody who's been overcrowded, and when a property comes up, you can match them, or you can find a mutual exchange through your local knowledge of somebody who maybe is under-occupied. They could be financially struggling because they are under-occupied, they're paying more rent than they can afford, and their children are suffering at school because they have to share a bedroom between the three of them. And in you understanding their circumstances and matching them up, you can change those two families’ lives forever, from the beginning to the end, all the way through. And then you'll be there after that. That can't be underestimated the impact that you can have.

A lot of people that I speak to fall into the sector, but they very rarely fall out of the sector. I would advocate coming into housing; it's full of great people, people who really want to make a difference, who are really positive, and you can have some real good fun with people. Ultimately, it gives you the opportunity to finish the day in a better place than when you started because you've helped people out. Not every day is like that, of course, but many days are, and I don't think there are a lot of sectors where you can get that back.

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